Busting the BS on breastfeeding, home births, tongue ties and more with Kate Visser, Milky Business Lactation
Kate is an IBCLC and midwife and is incredibly passionate about supporting mothers in their pregnancy, birth and feeding journeys. You can find her on her digital home land @milkybusinesslactation on Instagram, or reach out to her via her website www.milkybusiness.com.
Never met a midwife so passionate about physiological birth and breastfeeding. We chat about:
- Kate's personal experience with breastfeeding challenges, tongue tie
- When home birth turns hospital birth - the stigma and navigating as a hospital midwife
- What is tongue tie and do we need to release every tongue tie we find? How we weigh up risk vs benefit
- Who do we see when we suspect a tongue tie?
- What's the one thing you'd like to see change in the way we support breastfeeding?
Hey Mama, I have a Sleep Guide for you! For birth to 18 months, this guide is steeped in evidence and laced with compassion. And you can download the first chapter absolutely free HERE.
Are we Insta pals? If not, why not? Come and hang out at @mamamatters.au!
As always, thanks for being here- if you enjoy this poddy I would LOVE if you could give a rating and a review. It means the world to me.
xx
TRANSCRIPT
Fiona Weaver 00:05
Hello love and welcome to the mama chatters podcast. If you're keen to ditch all of the parenting shirts and want to uncomplicate sleep and parenting, you are in the right place. I'm your host, Fiona Weaver, founder of mama matters and through honest chats with experts and each other will help you to cut through all of the noise and to love the heck out of your imperfect and authentic parenting. Wherever and whoever you are. You belong here. Now, let's have a chat
Fiona Weaver 00:44
Hello, my love's welcome back to another week of the potty. I hope you're well. I have a chat today with Kate Visser, who is an ibclc. And you might know her from her Instagram handle milky business lactation. She's an absolute dead set legend. And this was such a nice chat to have. We talked all about the Unpopular Opinions of tongue ties and homebirths and breastfeeding and all the good stuff to do with babies and feeding. And yeah, it was a really, really great chat. So I hope you enjoy if you have seen on my socials, I am now offering the first chapter free of my sleep matters guide. This will give you an instant download of I think it's about 40 pages that you get for free, all about biologically normal infant sleep, how sleep works all the foundations to get you on your way to have a sleeping baby without separation based techniques. So that is available on my website. It is also in the show notes that you can click through and download that first guide. First chapter free. But without further ado, I bring to you Kate Visser. Hello, Kate, welcome to the podcast. I am so so happy to have you here. Thanks. It is so awesome to be on. It's a pleasure. It totally is. It's awesome. I will then go over your work until the day. Sorry. I will fangirl over yours too. So we're in good.
Fiona Weaver 02:10
Love.
Fiona Weaver 02:12
All right, so for those who don't know, Kate VESA, can you please let me know who you are, where you're from, who's in your family and all those interesting things about you? All the bits and bobs? Yep. So I am a midwife by trade that was my you know, original girl status. And then I trained as a ibclc, which is just some fancy letters, the International Board Certified Lactation Consultant.
Kate 02:38
And I am a mom to three still pretty young kiddos. I've got a four and a half year old, a almost three year old and a 12 month old so life is hectic, I still work in both roles. So I work as a midwife and a lactation consultant and try and juggle all the balls without dropping too many. Or I'm working on dropping the plastic ones and still juggling the glass ones. That's okay. You know, that's a work in progress. But yeah, we live on the Central Coast
Kate 03:11
with my hubby as well, let's not forget him my my family is greater than just my children.
Kate 03:17
The central coast of New South Wales and it's a glorious spot to live and we've been here for like a solid six years now and set up home and it's beautiful. You work in a hospital setting as a midwife and ibclc and you also have your own business. I do ya. So in the hospital setting, I work really like just as a midwife. Certainly, there's skills that are helpful as an ibclc. That's not my role on paper. But yeah, it's definitely helpful. And then in private practice gnocci business is my business. And I work as a as an ibclc there, but still obviously still use all my midwifery knowledge. And I'm really excited because I get to expand on my business in 2023 and actually start working as a private as well offering postnatal care so I finally get to make the best of both worlds. Because postnatal care is absolutely my jam. I love birth, and I do like antenatal care and education. But, uh, you know, I think any mom who has had a baby stays the absolute value of postnatal care. Once they arrived, once they're in that postpartum phase, they're like, Oh, this is the stuff that matters. And I did not realize and, you know, like, antenna was important and birth was important. Don't get me wrong, but there is this moment and this light bulb. This is where all the support is needed. And so it's a really awesome place and really fulfilling for me to work in that
Fiona Weaver 05:05
cool. I love the support the placement that postnatal support, especially in the public setting, I don't I haven't had babies through a private setting, but it just kind of drops off, doesn't it?
Kate 05:17
Really, some people fall through the gaps completely,
Kate 05:21
really quickly. So yeah, public and private, have fairly similar in that respect. So private hospitals, it tends to be once you discharge from hospital, unless you're lucky enough that your hospital has some kind of home visiting in place, with maybe one midwife, but most of the time when you discharge from hospital, that's it, there isn't actually any follow up until the child and family health nurse will see you. And that's usually between two to four weeks. But there's a lot that happens in that space of time. So that's why moms are, you know, typically encouraged to stay into a fire, whether they need that care or not. Once they feel like they need that care or not. And similarly, in the public hospital, while you will typically get home visits, so if moms discharge on day one, or day two, day three, but typically still get home visits from a midwife until around day five, depending on your hospital and your catchment. Sometimes it might go to day sevens times if you're really lucky two weeks. And on the superduper lucky end of the spectrum that is far less common is six weeks, which is the full scope of the midwife. But that's not really the common and the frequent norm normally, it's around five days. And five days is where, you know, we're we're literally training wheels, Bailey being put on. And mums just feel really left in the lurch. And, you know, I love that I'm available. And I love that I have that support. And I can I can be there for women. But they shouldn't have to feel like they're falling through the cracks. And they desperately need that support that support should be there in the first place. And so, you know, I hope that that support is available and set up. You know, by the time yeah, like my girls have have kids. Oh, you know, certainly before I before I hit the hay as a retired lady, but I drink. I drink big things because postpartum is important. I
Kate 07:27
seem to go forever anyway.
Kate 07:30
We do. Yeah, we definitely. We definitely work till we drop the labor. It's a labor of love.
Fiona Weaver 07:42
Okay, so have you always been a midwife? Has that been since you left school or?
Kate 07:46
Pretty much I did do my nursing first. But let's be honest, I'm not a nurse. I can confidently say that. I still hold my registration. But I'm just it's not my cup of tea. It was never intended to be my cup of tea. I just did it. Because I wanted to have the dual registration of nurse and midwife. Because at the time, that meant that it was easier to work in country areas in Australia, if I want to work overseas. I just thought look, it's just worth the slog. So I did do my nursing straight out of school. And then basically, as soon as I quote, went and did my midwifery move to WA. To do it, I moved from New South Wales over there. And that was super cool. That was amazing. learn lots work with some really fabulous people managed to get buried over there at the same time, because that's what you do. So it was really big and really fun. But yeah, I have worked in midwifery ever since and I can't, I can't see anything else. Like I can't imagine doing anything else, like working with women in this space and time in their life is just incredible. Like, it's just so important. And to be really influential. I don't know, like, it's just, it feels really magical. I grew up with my mom's my mom knowing her midwife from my brother and myself by name. So I grew up hearing stories about them. And I think how cool is that to be that person in that woman and that child's story forever? Yeah, absolutely. The power to be that really positive person, you know, like, oh, yeah, I had such a hard time and you know, like, I felt really unsupported and you know, like, I always travel breastfeeding, but you know, like I you know, there's this one person who was like, super encouraging, and, you know, really helped me and then I went on to feed you for however long or you know, whatever that goal was like to be influential and help that woman to feel successful in whatever that looks like as defined by her. It's just the coolest thing ever. So I don't really want to I don't want to, you know, drive a truck or, you know, like swipe groceries or anything. As important as this is my, this is my jam.
Fiona Weaver 10:11
When you say that your mum knew her midwife from her three babies. What did that or did the model of care looked like back then why was it so different? It was
Kate 10:21
it was actually really rubbish. So she, she was under GP, obstetric care. So she had never met her midwife before. This was literally just like a midwife that she encountered on a single time with the two of us and a different midwife. So that's where I'm like, there's so much power in that, like, obviously, she remembers her doctor who was. Yeah, so she GP obstetric care, which is really common in country areas still. So she obviously remembers him that was the same doctor for both pregnancies and birth. But both times she remembers, I think it was the I think it was the midwife who helped her breastfeed my brother, and then the midwife from my labor, I think it was, and I just think that's a mate like amazing that someone that you encountered once, like, an ongoing basis, there's no continuity to this. This is like fragmented care.
Fiona Weaver 11:19
It's so powerful in the most beautiful ways, the most beautiful of ways and the most scary of ways. Hey, like, I remember one person, changing the trajectory of my breastfeeding experience or changing the trajectory, you know, mothering experience, but I also remember one midwife who came in and said, just after my son had been born, okay, why did you pick him up? Because she just had shown me how to swaddle? And then I was holding him again, she's like, why do you do that? I will always remember that. I will remember that until the day.
Kate 11:57
Yeah. There's so much power. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's why I appreciate my role so much. And I, I often say, I'm like, I'm not, I know what I know. And I know what I don't know when and I don't ever want to feel cocky in my role, because, you know, really, really simply, I know, mothers and I know, babies. I know, breastfeeding. I know, pregnancy. And I and I know better. But I don't know, every mother. I don't know, every baby. And I don't know, every mother and baby that has coexisted in the past. And I won't know every mother and baby that's going to coexist in the future. Every mother and baby I ever meet, I have never met a pair like them. And we need to respect that. And the mothers themselves, they know their body and they know their baby than anyone else. So they walk in my doors, or I walk in their doors. And if I don't respect that, then I have automatically failed them. Because it's not my job to tell them what to do. It is my job to hear them and to validate them and to support them so that they can do what they need to do to get where they want to be. I am literally just their cheerleader on the sideline. That's important because I can either cheer them or I can fail them and Boo them. Be mean. I'd be really horrible at anyone. But there's that absolute power in it. And yeah, it's just, yeah, we need to value every encounter with every woman, and every day because yeah, it's just you don't know the power of it. You really don't until you know, you hear stories. 20 3040 years later. Yeah, for sure.
Fiona Weaver 13:46
So you knew that you wanted to be a midwife? Way back then? How did like how far into your midwifery career were you when you had your own babies? And what was that transition to motherhood like for you?
Kate 13:59
It was I I wanted to be a midwife since I was 15. So I started, I think I was 22 when I started studying once I finished by nursing and worked for a bit. I was 26 when I had my first baby, and it really short but interesting. So I just wanted to have my babies younger than my mom did. Purely because I was the youngest grandchild. My grandma unfortunately passed away when I was only nine. And she was one of my favorite people in the whole world. And I thought I just don't want my kids to miss out on that I want. I want you know, think of like my older cousin, they were married and having kids. And I thought how cool would that be to be an adult to have those conversations with your grandparents, the favorite people in your life? So I was like, No, I'm gonna be younger. I'm gonna do this. And selfishly as a midwife. I would also say younger women just have less complicated. So I thought I just, you know, I'm gonna work with physiology. And the grandparents want to make this work. And 26 was my lucky number, you know, so I was like, Oh, this is a great time to have a baby. So it was definitely I say, a humbling experience, because you know, like being thrown to the other side, you, you think you know, things, and then you have that lived experience. And then you like, Okay, I understand this on a whole new visceral level. And it just gave me a deeper understanding. So it's certainly being a midwife. And at that point, I was doing caseload midwifery. So I'm walking the same walk with other pregnant women. And it's beautiful, because I've cared for a couple of those, you know, twice over. And, you know, we're, you know, early pregnant at the same time and walking through it. And you're like, Okay, this is, yep. And I can't I can't undo that. I can't undo that understanding now of going. I look at a mom, you know, who's having morning sickness and disco? Or do you like you just, it's still there, it's still in your brain. But it was really tricky for me, because yes, I was working on a caseload midwifery team at the time. But being someone who is really pro normal physiological birth, and I think most midwives are but our experience in our training in Australia is very hospital based. And there's not really a way to work outside of the system until you've worked in this system. For a long time. I was very proud of hospital birth and trying to birth out of that. And even I had multiple colleagues in multiple midwife friends who kind of looked at me like I had three heads. And thought that that was, you know, maybe a little bit dangerous, and maybe a little bit scary. And I was only planning on birthing, literally at our like Sister hospital. On the coast, it just means that there's still two midwives that functions like a birth center, but there's no obstetric backup support. So if there was any concerns, it's an ambulance ride down to bigger hospital. Even that was like, whoa. And I think that was a really eye opening part for me of wow, like, do we use midwives? Support normal grip? Or do we not support normal birth? Or do we just support what looks like normal birth for a hospital? So I think that was kind of the beginning of me, you know, kind of experiencing my own journey as a mom in the system. And that was really challenging. I had the same experience second time around, but was obviously more confident, you know, as a birthing mom, and third time around, I plan to home birth, I thought, you know, what, if this is gonna be my last baby, or I wanted a home birth, I'm gonna make it happen. And if it was, you know, if it had changed, the offerings where we are, and where I had birth, for my first year wasn't an option anymore. And I didn't want to walk into a unit where there was obstetrics support and try and birth a child when I didn't feel like I needed that. And so I very quickly was either met with real enthusiasm that go girl, you rock that home birth, this is gonna be incredible. I am here for it. And on the flip side of that, would you like it? Like, what if something like waist was wrong, like, and I'm thinking, guys, rural midwives? Yeah, this isn't the general public. This is a real subset of health professionals. And again, it brought me back to that who supports no more physiological birth? Who trust and who trust women and who doesn't. That was really, that's really tricky. It's even tricky. Now, a year later, then people asked, like, you know, where did it Where did you birth your, your last baby? Or, like, what happened? Or yeah, third, you heard you had a home birth and get similar reactions. So it's, yeah, it's it's still tricky. But it was, you know, I wouldn't change any of those experiences. They were all really important in shaping me as a woman in that season of addressing, but also as a midwife. The value in the care and what I want to offer, like yeah, I've just had that real visceral experience myself. Yeah. So
Fiona Weaver 19:40
how was your home birth? And what sort of reactions do you get from people? Is it like, oh, well, it's lucky nothing went wrong.
Kate 19:48
If I tell them my full birth story. Yeah, yeah, someday it really is because I do know that it probably would have been different if I was Until midwife and didn't know how to really advocate for myself. And if I was in hospital, my third was definitely my hardest, but I feel like my first was certainly very challenging. She was about a 12 hour labor pushing for two hours, I was probably very close to an episiotomy. If not a forceps, I certainly would have been recommended to have Syntocinon and then be augmented in hospital. And I'm very, very, very likely would have been recommended to have forceps. But I managed to push that weight selling out and I'm so proud of that. And she was healthy and beautiful and fine. So we had no no issues and no complications from that. We had her at the birth center. Second baby we can skip because she was just that classic second baby who was just delightfully normal three hour labor and is that how hallelujah, second babies are normally normally look. If you're listening, I'm not going to Don't, don't quote me on it and don't come hunting, hunting down. Don't have a beautiful second baby. But second, babies typically take mums by surprise. And your body's it kicks in and knows what it needs. Not 99.9% of the time, but 95 at least a third baby, the one that I call wildcards. It's hard telling you this fee when you're pregnant with my third, right. I don't like pulling pregnant. He was absolutely fine. But I just knew that he was bigger. And I felt that my girls were a decent size. So a three point almost 3.7 kilos so decent, not huge. I felt like Tommy was a bigger baby. He felt heavier. My body felt different. My pelvic floor felt different. I normally carry posterior babies. That's fine. They've all turned brown at the end. That's not a drama. I was probably like nearing fully dilated for like almost four hours with Tommy. They that the hardest part was pushing him out. That was a solid, solid 20 minutes of the most gritty work I've ever I've ever done. It was a four and a half kilo baby with a 38 centimeter head who did not come out looking at my bomb like he should he didn't even come out sunny side up. He came out sideways. So what we call transverse so babies are meant to fit this way this way. Sideways. Yeah, wow. That's why he was so hard. Yeah. It was really odd. So all normal, you know, all normal, there was never a concern for him. There was never a concern for me. But there was a point where I envisage an ambulance ride thinking how am I going to get out of the bar, I can't handle the pain. If I go, I'm gonna get to the hospital, I'm gonna have to say the same faces, I'm gonna have to eat humble bikes I've needed to transfer, I'm gonna need an epidural. And then I'm gonna have a fourth. And this is ridiculous because this is my third baby. And literally that's flashing through my head about half hour before he born. And I still kind of carry that because it feels that shame that I've you know, I've planned to home birth, but I haven't had
Fiona Weaver 23:31
what do you think about that shame, though? Because I've heard that it's a lot like, look, it's a shame. Yep.
Kate 23:38
It's absolute bullshit. Yeah, because home birth is about the model of care that you employ. It's not always about your place of birth. home birth is really important for that continuity of care that midwifery led care being out of the system being supported being woman led, you know, and certainly supporting birth as his normal physiological process that we trust. And we know that he's so much better physiologically in terms of hormone release, and you know, rest and family orientated, being at home, and not having to relocate lights, people you don't know, all this stuff, intervention of actually transferring to a hospital. So it's not, you know, it there shouldn't be that, you know, quote, unquote, walk of shame. No, but I think that's what it felt like to me as a midwife. Knowing that I was, I know when I had my girls. It had been a few years before another midwife had birth at the birth center near us. So it was kind of already you know, the other girls who were kind of having babies or close to it. They hadn't, they didn't really know they weren't really close to any of our colleagues who were like a little bit older, gone and had a baby through the birth center. So that was already a little bit different. So having a home birth was like, Whoa, like, every time I went to a different area, someone found out it would be this whole, like, sit down cup of tea ask me questions kind of thing. Be like, wow, like, Do you really like you? Like you really like trust birth? And it was like yeah, yes, I
Fiona Weaver 25:20
do for work.
Kate 25:22
Yeah, I trust that babies come out. Do they fall out? No, like, no, that's not Yeah, I'm not not saying that. But they the babies come out this is every day normal ordering but life changing event that is meant to happen? Yes, we need support. Yes, we need training a well experienced people as because yes, things can go wrong. But the intervention that we need saving from is a whole different topic for another day. But, you know, that's what complicates things not, you know, not a uninhibited birth, things don't tend to go wrong anywhere near as much. So it was a really eye opening, and really different for me to kind of go back as a midwife to work in that space, to have those conversations knowing that, you know, I suppose how I see birth and how I work in that space, how I function is
Fiona Weaver 26:28
really different. So yeah, I hear I feel like home births are being normalized more these days since COVID. Yes,
Kate 26:37
absolutely. So, so much more. Yeah. Yeah, like women women want it the demand has always kind of been there. It's, it's just been that the, the lay of the land. And I think more I think more midwives have been really frustrated. And as well, as certainly the path to being able to be either either specifically, a home birth, or just a private midwife working across the whole scope of midwifery has changed. It's tricky, you know, like, it's, it's always up in the air. Any private midwife will tell you, it kind of feels like risky business, some days, you know, legally, and jumping through hoops and registration or whatnot. But there's certainly more midwives than ever to see the value in providing that kind of care to women, and also say that it just feels far more sustainable, to provide a safe and informed whole really holistic midwifery care outside of the system that feels like it's not going to burn midwives out faster than staying in the system. Right, that benefits and things like that. But, you know, if if this is going to be lifelong work, and you know, what, people who don't want to retrain and then stay as midwives? There is a bit of an Exodus. Exodus. Yeah, private economy, kind of kind of encouraged that a little bit. So yeah, just just opened up cracks in I think a lot of different places. But yeah, certainly helped us them. Certainly for midwives, certainly for moms as well. So yeah, baby, where were you
Fiona Weaver 28:21
along your journey when you became so passionate about breastfeeding? Was that before you breastfed, or was that as you went through that experience?
Kate 28:28
Yeah, well before so I was literally I was literally a student midwife. When I learned what an ibclc was, I hadn't actually heard the letters offering together before, I knew those people who work specifically in breastfeeding support. Think I'd heard of a lactation consultant before but no, like no formal kind of qualification around it. And I actually worked with a couple of midwives who were either current ibclcs or those who let their certification lapse. And it was instantaneous. It was like oh, that's what I need to do is just solidified there was no doubt in my mind, there was no question it was just that that's what I'm doing. I'm gonna do my
Fiona Weaver 29:10
thing very clear, hasn't it? Like this is what I want to share.
Kate 29:14
Yes, yep. And so that's where I sit here now, you know, like being like, the 10 years down the track going I don't want to do anything else. Like I don't want to like i i love this I love this work. And so I'm I'm now you know, going well, how can I make this sustainable because this is important work. I'm passionate about it. This system needs people who are passionate and informed and supportive. So how, what does this look like over the decades? So I I started my theory before I had my babies. I was certainly always, you know, kind of accruing those clinical hours that allowed me to apply to sit the exam. That then qualifies you to be a lactation consultant. So I was always making sure I worked in areas where I I was still supporting women breastfeeding. So whether that be you know, at birth, just doing what those immediate kind of postnatal feeds or takes over Midwifery, so you know, kind of working over that first week or two. With mums, that was really important. And I got a lot of experience in that. But yeah, really started probably, I think I was about 25 When I started going, Okay, I need to knuckle down and do my theory. And then I really kind of finished it all off. When I was on my first round of maternity leave with my daughter, I was like, this is this is the time that I can dedicate to it. So I've got photos of I'm watching slides on my iPad while I'm breastfeeding her. Or there was a day where I, you know, good ol air dropped on my screen to our TV. And there's my daughter sitting on the ground. She's almost a year old, watching, you know, like watching content with me. And I'm going going through like response and stuff like that. And I think it's just really cool to look back on. Yeah, so yeah, I think I was, yeah, 26 or 27, when I finally certified. Yeah, it was just, it was just really cool. Because I'd had my own breastfeeding experience in that space. Time. And that
Fiona Weaver 31:26
tell us about that. What has your experience been like?
Kate 31:31
Baptism of Fire feet? Like, I think I think it's just, women appreciate knowing that there are health professionals who do not absolutely not have easy journeys, and we encounter our own problems. So, you know, I knew, in theory, lots about breastfeeding, had my baby, and then had the most humbling experience, and very, very, very quickly learns how little education most midwives have, specifically in breastfeeding. And that was really pivotal for me. So my first feed was my daughter was phenomenal. You know, like, I know how to let the baby on. I've been doing this for a solid few years. This is cool. I know what I'm doing. Second feed not so great. Really trying to work on this. This is just This is not, this is not awesome. By the third feed, I had blisters. And it deteriorated really quickly. So it went from blisters, to full blown nipple damage. I think it was day three. And my midwife had been on a couple of days off. It was my birth and who had cared for me during my pregnancy. And it was day three, I messaged her and was like, you're coming?
Fiona Weaver 32:58
Your way? Really? I really need you.
Kate 33:02
And she's like, Yeah, like, I'll be there like, not not until late, like, I'll be there. And then I ended up I think I saw someone else. She she got called for birth. And then I saw someone else the next day. And at what it felt a little bit like, oh, you're a midwife, you're okay, like you won't need anything. And I do feel like no one wanted to step on my toes. And Adam, in hindsight goes, we do need to recognize that midwives are mums, first and foremost, and they're having this big shift. So that's certainly something when I've supported other midwives in their early postpartum experience. I honor that. And I recognize that yes, you are a midwife that your mom had his on. And your midwife had things thrown so far to the corner of the room, that we need to just really hold space for them. So that's something that I really learned that by day five, I was like, I need a nipple shield something because not quite right. My nipples felt like in theory that they were falling off, and they were so damaged. And I knew something wasn't right, but not a single midwife for over those five days. knew what was wrong, or could help me solve it. I went and saw a speech pathologist really soon afterwards, I said something's not right. Like something something because something was really wrong. I know how to breastfeed a baby. My boobs are completely functional. They're just ridiculously damaged. And I had this sort of like, I don't know if it's a tongue tie. I don't know. My midwife said look, I you know, she was probably the most helpful person and said, Look, I don't I don't know if it's a ton of her like I can see that. I don't remember what she said. There was like something that she thought wasn't quite right but everything else kind of seemed okay and just said look, I just don't know. So I found my own. I ibclc who was the like literally, like a mama hug? And was just glorious and, and I just say I walked in, I was obviously in tears because I watched the video one, what the heck a cancer release meant before I'd even seen her and I was I went not knowing, knowing something was wrong. And so there I am watching this video freaking out thinking, oh my gosh, you know, this is this what's going to happen? And so I'm just saying I'm just beside myself. And she was just so gloriously beautiful. And you know, yes, you're a midwife. But yes, you need to be supported as a mum. But you know, like, trust yourself, and then had one look at my daughter assessed her mouth. I was just like, Auntie God, no wonder your nipples are falling off. She has a horrendous tempo. And it was there was just so much validation. And that was day nine, like I had so much support. And so quickly. It was day nine that we hadn't had time to cut. And while it was certainly a healing journey, like it took a long time for my nipples to heal.
Fiona Weaver 36:10
I went on a snip tie, or Eliza,
Kate 36:13
it both both. Tommy girl third baby as well as the hard Labor's for me. Those one, they both had tomatoes. They were both cut. So they were both this is a release. And yeah, she went on to phase two, she was three and a half. Wow, amazing. So if I didn't have that support in those early days, or like I would have made it work, I would have done something like there was there was no, there was no alternative apart from breastfeeding to me. But I also could not keep going like I just cried and wild. And it was really, really humbling. So that was my first breastfeeding journey. My second, of course, because her birth was just, you know, awesome. She decided that breastfeeding would also be awesome. So she was my very uncomplicated middle child. And so she only just weaned them. I've only just needed to wean her. And so she was, yeah, to us a night in advance that she would have kept going if I didn't need to. And then the time around, I think I wasn't anticipating another time tie. I should have you know, but I'm I don't look for problems. I don't assess my own kids unless something comes up like unless there's a need to. And he said really well, for the first 24 hours. I was a bit tender. I was a bit thrown. I was like, Oh, this is not quite right. And he didn't cry. He didn't cry until literally the midwife came the next day. He was a really beautiful chill baby. And when he cried, there was a very, very clear anterior heart shaped tongue. And it was the first time I've really looked in his mouth. And so I said, Look, I'll just give it another day. Like I'm starting to struggle, but I'll give it another day and just see how we go. And I think I lasted about six hours. And like very quickly phones. My previous lactation consultant, who was a dear colleague now, I said, Oh, I need you. I need your help. And sent her a picture and she was like, oh, yeah, come see me ASAP. Like I literally I said, I haven't put my finger in his mouth. But I can tell you a couple of things very quickly.
Fiona Weaver 38:35
Okay, where the tongue is so helpful. Can I ask you what your personal opinion on all the tongue tie stuff is because I do think it's grossly over diagnosed like that is a classic tartan tie back presentation. The scissor release. That's it. That's a tongue tie. But there is also a lot of other tongue ties. Like, what's your take?
Kate 38:59
On it? Is it and I think sometimes that's what it gets to is that for some people, it's almost that this is too hard to digest. And this is almost Yeah, yep. Yep. So I will either just block it out, or I will refer on and that's, that's absolutely fine. Like I often say, like, if it's not your expert, if it's not your area of expertise, you just, like passively, you don't have to know I think I think there is this attitude of every single tongue tie needs to be relaxed. And I think that's kind of where the overdiagnosis comes from. We do know that it's around 50% of babies or 50% of cases where a tongue tie is present. That purely just one on one, breastfeeding support, you know, tweaking positioning and has been you know, doing different things. You know, really hands off kind of stuff that might even involve like woodworking, you know, with Cairo or osteo, or, you know, oral exercises, things like that will actually be absolutely sufficient, and those babies will go on to thrive. So, you know, if we look at going every tiny, tiny bit released, speaking in half that really quickly, just with adequate breastfeeding support. So that's where it's really important. And I can't stress this enough that the first person that you see, if you think there is a Tundra is actually someone who deals with managing breastfeeding and complex issues and knows all the stuff around that. It's not helpful if you go and see someone who is purely trained in oral surgery, yes, if you have a tummy tuck, because there is no unless there is someone who co works with them. Who can help with that, and let's say magically, isn't ibclc and the same practice thing, someone who's just purely trained in surgery is obviously going to do what they are trained to do. And that's jumping to surgery without going the other kind of alternative route first. So certainly not every single woman and every single baby who walks in my door will recommend a friend or enemy, or a tongue tie release, if a tongue tie is present, because it depends on the degree that's there, how it actually impacts the function of the tongue, because if a baby is feeding, well, there's no nipple pain and damaged milk supply is not altering because they're, you know, they're managing to drain the breast adequately. And there's no you know, there's no other concerns, but there's limited tongue movement, clearly the tongue is functioning well enough, you know, it's doing its job well enough that we can get a good latch, we're getting enough milk, we're sustaining life and we're functioning. When know that the two the two reasons, or the two areas that we recommend are for anatomy for is when there's nipple pain and damage. And when there's either that low milk supply or low weight gain, the two obviously go hand in hand. And those are what I call, you know, like breastfeeding, jeopardizing symptoms, like, you know, if we've got nipple pain and damage, very, very, very few moms can sustain that, and work through that. It's just, it's just not no one can handle absolutely tattered nipples, being fed on, it's just not not going to happen. And with a, you know, a low weight gain or a low milk supply, we're just going to end up in that top trap. And then, you know, weaning happens really quickly. So those breastfeeding, jeopardizing symptoms are where we've got very good research to say yes, in that situation of attainder is present, and we have those symptoms, then yes, we should do all the other things. But uh, for anatomy is more likely going to be kind of the endpoint and the answer and far more helpful. Then, you know, then kind of anything else, where there's all the anecdotal stuff, all the concerns around sleep and speech and solids, that's where we don't have great research on it to support doing a procedure that is oral surgery, to prevent those or to minimize those other symptoms. And that's really ice net really hard to sit in that space as a health professional and to help moms navigate that. Because there is lots of noise on social media, there's lots of opinions, health professionals have different opinions. So I get it, I understand what it's like as a mum to try and navigate that space and to and to do what's best. But then also as a health professional to, you know, to talk about what we have research on, but then also what we don't have research on and what we have research on this kind of really murky, or whatnot. So that's kind of where I sit and I go, you know, ultimately, it's up to families to decide what works best for them. But yes, timecards are absolutely a thing that exists, how often are they diagnosed? It I think is related to more so the hate saying the degree or the severity of it, but more so how much impact function because I like to talk about some like I have a tongue tie. Yeah, like I the hardest part for me is I cannot lick an ice cream very well. But I can totally just fine. Yeah, have you heard me? I've talked your ear off by the time we get to this topic so I can talk to spine I can follow just fine. But looking at ice cream is a little bit, you know, a little bit technical after a while. stretches that frenulum but my mum managed to breastfeed me till I was two she was some kind of Martha who pushed through nipple pain. Don't ask me how because I would not respect to her. Yeah, I get it. I get it. It's really, really,
Fiona Weaver 44:59
really tricky. A Yeah, really? Yeah. It like from my personal experience. So my son, he, it was an intense baby he was, you know, high needs sensitive. I know that, like, that's who he is now, but our time because he fed so frequently I had perfect supplies perfect. Everything, nothing was a problem. He just felt really frequently and he was just intense and on his nervous system was just on. And they told me that he had a ton to I wanted to release it. And I didn't because I felt like given his nature, I didn't think it would be something that I just shouldn't think too much about. So I ended up not doing anything about it. And then he has zero long term problems. I fed him until he was two. He's got beautiful teeth. He's really fussy eater, but I don't think that is related. But yeah, beautiful speech, everything. My daughter, she ended up having the enlarged tonsils and adenoids and the sleep apnea and she has really crowded bottom teeth, and she has speech issues. And they told me she has a had tongue tied to but I still didn't do anything about it. But I wonder whether Yeah, so it's really it's really hard to know. It's hard.
Kate 46:17
We like we certainly know that yes, like with, you know, dentition and teeth and spacing and palate, a tongue tie certainly can affect that. But what the what the research is we don't recommend doing a for anatomy and cutting that tantalizing that buy in, you're kind of in fear, or, you know, to prevent possible future issues, because we don't know that they're going to happen. And you know, and that kind of Yeah, but the risk outweighs kind of the benefit. But it is very, it's really tricky to go wood future meat like wood future may be okay when my my son or daughter is X number of years old. And if I need to get orthodontics or no, if they struggled to move their tongue side to side and clear their teeth, what if they do have frequent cavities? Am I okay with that? You know, like, Yeah, especially, especially if they're not having issues breastfeeding. So it's a really like, no one can make that answer except for the parents. So it's really tricky. So I certainly empathize with families going through that. Because if they're not having those breastfeeding, jeopardizing symptoms in those early days, and they're contemplating and they're, you know, they're kind of confronted with or, you know, someone says, The baby has a tongue tight, and they're like, Well, what the heck does this mean? And that's where all that noise can just be really hard to navigate.
Fiona Weaver 47:46
Because you can see five different people and they'll all say something different. And you say, what do I believe? I don't know. I don't I'm not trained in this I just yet. And then it all feels too hard and overwhelming. So ignore it.
Kate 47:57
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So I try and certainly provide a space where moms can just feel not necessarily clarity for me, but that I can help them unpack what they're feeling and provide them with some of that research. So they can, yeah, I can say my goal is for them to just be able to tune into themselves and their babies. Because I think that's just really important, because they have all the answers. They know the answers. They know what they need, and what they want to do, but sometimes they just need help blocking out everyone else. You know, like finding the important answers, and then relating that to what they need and what they want to do and where they want to go. So I guess,
Fiona Weaver 48:36
unless you are having breastfeeding, jeopardizing symptoms, it's not urgent. It's not something that you have to do when they're a baby. And that was one of the most helpful things that I came across was senior, anxious. She was going to cranial sacral therapist, it was maxillofacial something Yeah, I get really confused. But she said her tongue is really restricted, but it's okay. If you don't want to do anything. Now you can wait and see. And later if you decide to do it, it might just be that she hops up into the chair by herself and has an army medal and gets it done that way. Rather than you know, it just looks different at each each age. I'd love my husband to get his done because he is very clearly tongue tied. And his mum speaks about our he'd never take a bottle he he'd never take the breath he would didn't like, like breastfeeding and would only feed on the smushed nipples. Oh, smash teats like the flat ones. Yeah, I'm terrible. Yeah. And he's got all this stuff like sinus stuff and anxiety and all this stuff that I wonder whether anything like that affects what's happening. And so
Kate 49:44
I've contemplated having mine released as an adult. Have you I've done it. I have, I think it's more so that it's just, like, wildly expensive. And do I really want to spend money on it? Like is it you know, is it really like, is that really going to be helpful? And again, obviously, you know, like, I'm not not personally having breastfeeding, jeopardizing symptoms as a breastfed child now. Like, stuff that you can definitely take it would literally just be Yeah. For almost sort of research. This is yeah, it's kind. Well live stream live stream of content released.
Fiona Weaver 50:29
Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Okay. So where what? What can you tell me? Where do you think we are going so wrong? Whether you think we are going to wrangle what what do you wish we could change about breastfeeding in today's society? cultural expectations, like all of these pressures that parents have about risk? What's what's what you want to change or what bothers you?
Kate 50:52
i It's really like the four biggest question ever. Truly, not fine. Totally fine. I do genuinely think if there's one really simple little thing that I think would make all the difference. Is women seeing other women breastfeed? We don't see it. It is this undercover secret? Do it at home before you go out, do it in your car, do it under a cover. Do it in a beach tent like it and I understand I understand why, you know, because distracted babies so if they have in the car, you know, and recover because they'd be pulls off and looks around like I get it breastfed.
Fiona Weaver 51:34
In maize, like it's an excuse to leave a corner on
Kate 51:37
the corner of the cafe, like, yeah, I get it. But then there's also lots of moments where we do that, because we might not feel supported in that public space. But in that public space, I can guarantee you there is going to be another woman who is either another teenage girl, young woman who's yet to have her babies, or another woman who might be further down the track who finds that really healing to be like, I'm so glad that she feels supported enough to do this now. And I think collectively as women, the benefit that we get from seeing other women breastfeed and seeing other babies breastfeed, opens us up to if nothing else just normalizes it just goes Okay, cool. Babies feed at the breast and not just when the newborn babies like you might see like a one year old fading at the beach, a two year old and a hanging out of the boot of a car. Whatever it may be, we just start with kind of just normalizing breastfeeding across the continuum. But it also creates this opportunity to have conversation. And oh, yeah, like, you know, my baby does that too. Well, oh, my gosh, I didn't know that was a thing. And so we start to unpack you know, just like common scenarios, like, you know, similar to like the sleep world for you, just like, oh, yeah, like, how many times did your baby wake last night, we had a great night, only five, and you're like, stop. And I'm so excited for you, like we normalize it. And when we talk about it. So it's like this little world of solidarity. And I think that's why it's so helpful when moms buddy up with another breastfeeding mom, or they've got a sister or a cousin or something. And they collectively tend to do really well, because they've got this ability to bounce off each other. I don't know, if we I don't think we've got that set up. I don't think we've got that level of solidarity. I think we kind of need to start from scratch of like, you know, like these, you know, awkward new mums and mothers group trying to meet each other for the first time, but in open spaces of like the cafe and the shops and and the park, complete strangers just seeing each other. Breastfeed normalizing it starting those conversations, studying this tiny little connection that builds up to this ability to you know, I love it. Maybe I'm a little bit weird. But if I'm at a cafe and I'm breastfeeding or something, I will always say something, always be like, Go your girlfriend, like you're doing an amazing job, your baby looks so happy and healthy. You know, just little things that we go, okay, I might do this again next time. Like this wasn't such a bad experience. Because there is so much power in that. And I feel like that's really simple. But if everyone does it, it kind of just starts to create this normality, and then creates this connection of conversations and through conversations. We have this solidarity. And through solidarity, we start bullshit busting. And that's really important. If we can crack down the, you know, one thing Oh, no, my baby never did that. If we can go to that, oh, yeah, kind of thing that the baby did that like once or twice or I knew, like, you know, like, Sophie down the road. Her baby did that. And, you know, I don't know how to help but I know someone who might, you know, we started this conversation. So there's a lot of noise. And I'm big on moms being able to tune into that but it really starts from community and you know, We talk about the village, this magic village that just comes in, support us and helps us and, you know, frankly, we're all waiting for the village to turn up. And I think we just need to start in a village looks different. Yeah, yeah, we're not, we're not just we can't stand on our driveway waiting for said village to arrive, we need to go to someone else's driveway and start making their village or go to the park and just start making it happen. And that's awkward. No one likes, you know, kind of making adult relationships, like get it. But we can start with really small things, really influential things. Did you see another woman breastfeeding, whether it's a newborn baby Fresh as a daisy toddler, that's, you know, that's community, that's really powerful for them. And I'm encouraged that. But next to that, you know, create that conversation that solidarity, because, really, it's from little things, big things grow. So that's certainly something I try and do, from a digital perspective from afar on social media to create that sense of solidarity. And I have loved that the amount of messages in my inbox on a daily basis. Thank you for sharing that, you know, like your 12 month old still contact naps and you know, like was feeding or whatnot. You know, like, Thank you for sharing this, like, you know, this makes me feel so much less alone. And I'm like, that's one little thing, but I want moms to be able to go out and do that on their own.
Kate 56:31
I think that would be really bloody powerful.
Kate 56:34
Yeah, amazing.
Fiona Weaver 56:36
That's a really nice note to end on. So where can people find you? How can they connect with you?
Kate 56:43
I am I suppose my my, my main Digital Home is on Instagram. So my handle is no key business lactation. Otherwise, my website is literally no key business.com I'm on Facebook as well. I gloriously do in person and Virtual Console. But all things breastfeeding and lots of other things. Like, I don't have a newborn. I don't want to exclusively breastfeed, you know, whatever. We do anything infant feeding, that's anything infant feeding is my jam. So if we are you if you are pregnant, wanting to, you know, to breastfeed or make the most of your journey, anything from antenatal consults through to winning your six year old child makes feeding formula feeding bottle feeding. So anything, anything infant feeding, we are literally not just here to support you to exclusively breastfeed. But if that's your goal, I am still your gal.
Kate 57:39
But yeah,
Kate 57:42
I am pretty, pretty, pretty active in my inbox in my email, and I'm always happy to support mom for pointing in the right direction, whatever that may be.
Kate 57:52
That yeah, I love her good girl. Thank you. Yeah.
Kate 58:00
Yeah, yeah, like, trying to try and keep it real. It's not all roses and rainbows and hard work. But it's glorious. And this season of our life deserves so much support. And it's so powerful, and it's influential. And I want every woman to be 50 or 60. And look back and someone says, How did you feed my mom? And you know, and you tell them and you just feel this overwhelming sense of pride? Yeah, I did. Like it was so hard. It was the hardest thing I ever did in my whole life. And I love that, you know, that's what I live for. I live for generations down the track of women feel so bloody proud of themselves. Now this guilt and shame and this lingering grief that we currently see from older generations that I wish I had that support or that would have been so nice, or they thought I didn't have enough milk and no one told me and
Fiona Weaver 58:53
ya know, better do better. Yeah, we're working. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, you are doing incredible work. And we're so grateful for you and thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today.
Kate 59:06
Absolute pleasure for you. Thank you so much for having me. Over blast.
Fiona Weaver 59:12
Thank you so much for listening to mama chatters if you enjoyed this episode. Let's continue the conversation on Instagram at MAMA matters.edu. Be sure to share this app with your family and friends. And don't forget if you liked it, please leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again and I will see you next time.
