Melanie Nolan, The Natal Naturopath on Raising Twins
Melanie is a mother of three daughters, a naturopath, and the founder of The Natal Naturopath women's health clinic who care for women in their health concerns. She has a special passion for iron-deficiency in women and went on to launch her own iron supplement IronBiotic. Through her work she aims to bridge the gap between baby-care and mother-care, and has also created her own pre and postnatal supplement, EverNatal.
We chat about:- Her experience with raising twins - the unique challenges and blessings- Unhelpful advice and stigma she experienced around twins - Logistically managing bedtime with breastfeeding twins and an older sibling- Her advice for others expecting twins
You can find Melanie here:www.thenatalnaturopath.com.auInstagram: thenatalnaturopath
Hey Mama, I have a Sleep Guide for you! For birth to 18 months, this guide is steeped in evidence and laced with compassion. And you can download the first chapter absolutely free HERE.
Are we Insta pals? If not, why not? Come and hang out at @mamamatters.au!
As always, thanks for being here- if you enjoy this poddy I would LOVE if you could give a rating and a review. It means the world to me.
xx
TRANSCRIPT
Fiona Weaver 00:00
Hello my love's I am here today I am camping. Actually I am recording from my little caravan. So if you hear during our chat today with Melanie Nolan, the NATO naturopath, if you hear some strange noises outside that is because I am camping with number three families and many, many children but I was really keen to have this chat. So I hope you can be lenient on me for my audio quality today. We chatted about twins today. Melanie is a naturopath. She owns the natal naturopath. And she has an eight year old girl and a four year old twins. And I wanted to have this chat with her because I have so many followers who do have twins or are expecting twins and they often say Fiona any advice around twins. And I just feel like it's such a unique experience that I don't want to be the one who talks to that. So it was really nice. We talked about the logistics of having twins, supporting twins to when everyone is telling the telling you to not do that. So I hope you've enjoyed this chat. And you can find Melanie at the needle naturopath on Instagram, and her links and everything are in my show notes. So enjoy. Welcome Melanie. I am so happy to have you here on the potty. We have been trying to tee this up for a while. Haven't we
Melanie Nolan 01:16
know we have here now? I just thought well, I think he's been having me. Oh, you're
Fiona Weaver 01:22
so welcome. So you have your own company. You are the the NATO naturopath on Instagram. Is that what your company is? Yeah, as well. Yeah,
Melanie Nolan 01:30
yeah.
Fiona Weaver 01:31
Do you want to tell us a little bit about who you are and your work and how you came to do this work to get us started?
Melanie Nolan 01:37
Yeah, so. So I studied a Bachelor of Law science out of high school. And I did that under pressure from my parents, you know, law got to do law. Yeah. So I don't know, some sort of sign the lawyer. But I really had the passion for the science aspect and like human biology. And so anyway, once I figured out law was not for me, you know, personally, I then had my own health issues. And I was seeing a naturopath at that time. And she was really helping me and I was like, Well, my eyes have been opened up to a whole new way of treating health concerns, not just through, you know, your GP and the standard medical pathways. So it's like, Well, I think I'm going to do this, this seems like my calling. And so I enrolled into the Bachelor of neuropathy. And then I found out I was pregnant. I was 21. And I was like,
Fiona Weaver 02:31
oh my god, okay, well,
Melanie Nolan 02:32
I still want to do this. And I still want to, you know, have the baby. So I studied alongside having Willow, who's my eldest daughter. And then yeah, graduated, I then launched my business, which at the time was just an online women's clinic. This was a few years ago now just really servicing women in the preconception pregnancy or postpartum phases of life. And then it's just grown. From there. We help women with all health conditions and children and men, and we have a few other practitioners that work in the clinic. And then last year, I developed my own supplement range. So I've got a prenatal called Evan Adel, and an iron supplement called Iron biotic. And that's a really big part of the business now as well.
Fiona Weaver 03:18
Yeah. Amazing. You must be so proud of what you have achieved over these last few years at all. Whilst you didn't mention that you'd also had twins and I had went out today. Hey, sorry, I had
Melanie Nolan 03:31
my twins, right at the end of my uni degree. And I thought, Oh, that's great pregnancy, you know, 41 weeks with the loi, that takes me to the end of my degree, and that's fantastic. And then I found it was, Oh, my God, that last trimester is gone now. Because, you know, it's when you don't know when you're going to go into labor. And I knew physically, I wasn't going to be very capable of going to uni every week. So I finished the last trimester when they were when they were newborns. Yeah, so Oh, wow.
Fiona Weaver 04:00
Yeah. So can you walk us through that entire experience? Like what was it like when you How old was Willow when you found out that you were pregnant with twins? Yeah,
Melanie Nolan 04:10
so Willow was just over three. So I remember when I had Willow, I was like, I could not have another child. This is so consuming, you know and explain haha, this was. And so I was like one and done. I'm happy with her. And, you know, I think what played a role into that was my postpartum wasn't very good physically. And so I have a passion for postpartum health. I was really young, there was a lack of support, you know, there was a few factors there. But then once she tipped over to three, I was like, oh, you know, I feel I feel ready to have another another baby. And I learned so much through my degree, and I was so convinced. Pardon would be different. My pregnancy would be different. I was really going to prioritize my health. And yeah, I went to a psychic. The the month like I was actually like, three weeks pregnant with twins and she's I said you're having twins. And I was like, what's the psychic told you? Yeah. She said, she's like you're having you're pregnant with twins right now. And I hadn't told anyone I was pregnant because it was so early on. Oh
Fiona Weaver 05:09
my god, I love psychic stories.
Melanie Nolan 05:11
I know. And I was like, whoa. And so when I went to my church, I requested a dating ultrasound and like a dating scan, because I was like, wondering if it's true. Like I couldn't not know if it's twins. I need to know right now. And yes, they will know if it was twins. So I told everyone about her. I was like, she's amazing. Wow.
Fiona Weaver 05:30
Have you been back to her since? No,
Melanie Nolan 05:33
actually, I she doesn't even know. No, I knew. Oh, I think I'll message No, no, I message Oh, my God, I'm having twins. But no, I haven't seen her. I mean, since having twins, you know, there's not much time for anything.
Fiona Weaver 05:48
So how did that feel for you, when you did find out that there were two in them.
Melanie Nolan 05:51
So I was initially quite elated, like, very excited. And I thought I feel so blessed. This is really what a unique experience. I've always wanted to be a twin because I thought like what a beautiful relationship it would be to have someone alongside you in all stages of your life. But then the elation went off when I started to started to feel really physically unwell. And that took a huge toll mentally, I was really so so sick, the nausea, the fatigue. And I was just so low, like really quite depressed in the first trimester. And then I started to imagine life for twins, and there was a huge grieving of okay, this is not what I anticipated. So I'm going to, I don't know, I think I just imagined everything different to what I had with Willow. And that wasn't what I wanted. It was like, No, I want to go back to that. I don't want to have a whole nother you know, difficult experience. Breastfeeding, I was worried about that. I was worried about, you know, I was co sleeping with a lot at that point. And then I was getting all stressed about how am I going to, I can't closely with all these kids in my bed. What's life gonna look like for work, there was a lot of guilt for Willow, like, I'm not just interested in one newborn, but two, and there was like a lot of negative fate, like a lot of people around me sort of, in a jokingly way, but really scaring me about like, what life with twins would look like. And I was just like, holy shit. I don't know if I'm prepared for that. But then what what helps was I found out their gender, which I hadn't done with Willow. And that day, a weight was lifted on my shoulders, like they're really the girls, they're just gonna be like, we lose the humans. That's scary. I do sort of faded once I knew. They were girls like they were real. They were like real little babies then. And then starting to see the little faces or the 3g, 3d ultrasound. Like I, I became excited towards the end of the pregnancy again, but I had to I had to go through a lot of grieving and anger. I was like, This is not what I signed up for. I didn't see this. I wanted a second child. But I don't think I wanted to sign up for the difficulty of having twins.
Fiona Weaver 08:07
Did you know anyone close to you who who had twins?
Melanie Nolan 08:10
No, not a single person? No, no one that I could. You know, I joined a few twin Facebook groups. But you know, there wasn't that real life connection with someone and twins don't run in my family. So my twins were identical, which is just a random split of the embryo and it can happen to anyone. So there wasn't even anyone in my family that had had twins before. But then once you have twins, you really do hear of more you hear them more often than I had before.
Fiona Weaver 08:39
Yeah, yeah. And so what was that? Well, what was your pregnancy and birth like with twins versus what it was like with Willow?
Melanie Nolan 08:50
Well, the pregnancy was so much harder. It was it was a real tacks on my body. The morning sickness took me by surprise. It was all day debilitating. I cried so much and I didn't really feel like there was going to be like the internals like I just know you're in that like black hole of just feeling so unwell. I thought I don't know what it feels like to feel well again. So there was that I was you know, I was pretty exhausted physically I had pelvic girdle pain. So every every step I took after 18 Weeks was severely like stabbing pain into my pelvis. So that was that was something I had to really manage to adjust a lot of my activities like to wear pelvic girdle shorts every day and see your pelvic floor physio which was helpful but the pain it was just like my body but like a 90 year old woman's. So that was hard. And then in pregnancy, I had to really think about okay, what what could birth look like? Because I had a really wonderful experience with Willow her birth was natural, unmedicated. heated and just really calm. And it was it was great. And I imagined that again, second time around, then you get the scare mongering about having twins vaginally, there was some negative, you know, like obstetricians at the hospital that were kind of scaring me into like, what? What twin births can look like what neat what can go wrong. So that was that was there was a lot of grieving and that too, because I was really, I think set on the idea of what birth was going to look like, you know, I was very, like, maybe not flexible. I was not flexible. I was like, no, no, I want this to be natural vaginal, no epidural, I'm going to do that. And then, as the pregnancy progressed, talking to a lot of different health professionals, I started to warm up to the idea of having an epidural. Because then they said, that baby B so the second twin can be delivered a lot more easily if you've got the epidural already in place. And we can go up there and maneuver them so your chance of delivering baby baby vaginally is increased. I said if we do need to do a Syrian for Baby B, which happens sometimes that epidural is already there. We don't need to knock you out things like that. So you know, I started to get okay, this is okay. As long as I can still deliver them naturally with the epidural helps that then I'm okay to do that. Although I have a severe phobia of needles. Really funny yet? No, no. But I went into labor naturally at 36 weeks and six days. And I was so ready. I was ready to deliver them for like 30 weeks, you know, I was done. My water broke at home. And then labor decided on its own and yeah, when we got to the hospital, it was just mild period pain. She's like, are you six centimeters dilated? Or like what? And they said that could have twins because of the weight on your cervix. your cervix can really dilate a lot quicker and with less continuity with paint like it just wasn't painful. Yeah. But I remember getting six centimeters was below I was like vomiting, I'm in agony. Yeah. And then we got the epidural and got the epidural place. And that was absolutely fine. Like I think I made that to be so much more scary in my mind. And River was born first and she was head down already. So that was a really big deciding factor in whether we could do a vaginal delivery and it was that baby he needed to be head down. Thankfully she was and she was born. And then yeah, within seconds. I'm like, the she's off on a table. We're getting mucus locked out. And I'm like, everyone's like you need to forget some baby baby. And I'm like trying to look over River and you know, try to focus on her but they're like, You need to concentrate on pushing baby baby out. Yeah, it was it was there was a lot a lot of there was like 12 people in the room. It was those bright lights, my legs were in syrup. So it was really different to willows bear. So so different. I was I was I would say my stress was really high. Like I was crying a lot. I was feeling scared. Everything felt like it was moving really quickly and always out of control. And in the end, Hunter was a bit transverse by the time River was delivered. So they one of the obstetricians did have to put her arm up there and grab Hunter, and I'm so glad I had the epidural, because I just don't know what that would have felt like, yeah, you can imagine. Yeah. So she was born and yeah, and that was that was it like that was it was fine. And I bled a little bit. So I needed to have a drip. Or I think it was training. But yeah, it was I looked back on their birth in a really positive way. Even though it wasn't what I anticipated. I still it was it was nice in its own way.
Fiona Weaver 13:36
Yeah. And it sounds like it was quite different to your first birth. But you were still held and supported. And
Melanie Nolan 13:41
yes. And I had maternity maternity group practice. So like that. That constant? midwife. Okay. So, I had the same midwife that I had in willows birth, she was my midwife for the twins and putting from a vaginal delivery, and she was so supportive of that. And I think, you know, she was literally holding my hand when I was giving birth to the twins. So having just her I felt so calm because all the other people in the room I'd never met before. And it was bloody overwhelming. But I had her and I was focusing on her and yeah,
Fiona Weaver 14:16
yeah, amazing. And so talk me through those first few hours first few days with the twins. Yeah, I
Melanie Nolan 14:25
think it was a bit shell shocked for Melbourne. I didn't initially feel a great deal. To be honest. I felt like I'd been through some sort of cars. I body aches. I was exhausted. I'd been up all night. So I don't know whether I bonded immediately. That's for sure. We tried to do Yeah, I did skin to skin and we did the golden hour and trying to breastfeed them. But it was a bit overwhelming. I think the breastfeeding like lots of different midwives had lots of different opinions on how to breastfeed no you need to do them both at once. No, no, you need to do the one after the other because you're new to it and and reversible. Lily sleepy so she can't breastfeed you need to pump after and syringe her. And you know, like it was just a lot of things happening in the hospital. But I think, yeah, I don't think it really dawned on me that I'd had twins. Actually, I don't I don't think it had I was in shock, I think genuine shock. Like, was it more when he got home? Yeah, it was more when I got home that I started to really, really feel that like surge of love and connection to them. They were, they were really big as well. So Hunter was 3.8 kilos, and, sorry, three 3.7. And River was 3.2. So it was just it was difficult to breastfeed them, like because they were big, you know, they'll be little. There'll be babies. So when we got home, it was just a lot of couch and bed time a lot. It was just breastfeeding. And then they would they would sleep and they were really sleepy for the first few weeks, which did help me adjust, I think an ease Willer into life with them. Because after breastfeed, they would sleep for hours on end. And so I could I could attend to Willow, but I felt I've been pulled in so many directions. So it was it was it wasn't you know what I hoped for. Like, I felt like guilt for willows. I need to play with her. But I'm exhausted and I wanted to snuggle the sleeping baby. But that baby's awake. So I need to attend tend to her and the other ones still sleeping. So I'm not going to move her. And I think there was a lot of being pulled in many directions. You have any support at home at the time. So my mum had taken time off work. So she was Yeah, so she was helping. But yeah, I didn't have any help overnight, which I would have I would have liked I think but you know, Mum was sort of turning to Willow. And she was having Willow for sleepovers and things like that. So in hindsight, I think a postpartum doula would have been something I really should have looked into. But I didn't even know they existed at that time. Yeah,
Fiona Weaver 16:59
were you were you still in a relationship with the father of the babies? Yeah, we
Melanie Nolan 17:03
were. So we were together. And however, it was not a supportive relationship. So I really was doing everything on my own with the twins. He was certainly intending to will on such but then, you know, went back to work. And then our relationship did break down when the twins were five months old. So a lot of it was was being done on my own for sure.
Fiona Weaver 17:25
Yeah. And how did Willow adjust to having two little babies?
Melanie Nolan 17:32
It was it was good at a star like she really she surprised me initially. But then I think the the novelty wore off. And then she did express a lot of anger towards them. And she was a little bit violent towards them as they got older, just out of frustration, I think, especially when both were screaming at once, it was a lot. And so her regulation was, you know, limited in that and mine was to, you know, to screaming babies was so hard. And I think her adjusting was impacted by the fact that my marriage broke down. And I was trying to trying to parent, you know, Mother, three babies on my own, really. And I think that obviously would have affected her ability to bond to them, because I was stressed a lot of the time and unsupported. So that impacted her. Absolutely, as well. But now they're like best friends. So it's so I just wish I could go back and tell myself like it's so worthwhile. They are going to be besties. It's just, you know, it takes time. Absolutely. Like they will, being a four year age got nearly there was a long few years where they really didn't interact well with
Fiona Weaver 18:43
you know, yeah. And now
Melanie Nolan 18:45
they get along really well. Or they do they play all the time. And they are just best friends. And yeah, it's so beautiful watching them and like, oh my god, that was so worthwhile. But, you know, yeah. Screaming little babies Wheeler wasn't interested in that's for sure.
Fiona Weaver 18:59
It's pretty hard. And they don't get a lot back from the little babies. No,
Melanie Nolan 19:03
that's there wasn't that positive feedback was now you know, the twins. They hug her and kiss her and they like it's a once bidirectional relationship like it's not just Yeah, give me give me Yeah, yeah. And so you're twins? Are they like what are they temperaments? Like,
Fiona Weaver 19:18
are they quiet? Did you find that you would have to feed one more urgently or respond to one more urgently than the other one? And do they sleep differently and all of that? Yeah,
Melanie Nolan 19:26
yes. So at the start, I adjusted them whenever that baby needed a feed. So I really, I'd heard they should be on the same schedule, but I just couldn't manage it. And especially with newborns, there is no schedule so I found personally breastfeeding one at a time was the way for me at the start. Eventually I was able to attend and feed at the same time but I just I really enjoyed and I'm because it became an enjoyable experience just nurturing that one and then the The one so thankfully that seemed to work for a while. They Riva definitely was more sleepy like for the first few weeks so hunter would feed a lot more than her. And then as the months rolled on, I started to see that Riva needed more support with sleep than Hunter So Hunter was you know, dare I say that easier where it was just a breastfeed I could pop it down awake and she would actually just go to sleep on her own and she would be alright in so I had them in my room in a cot next to my bed together and then I started to co sleep with a river next to me because it was just I was finding she needed at that extra the just just maybe next to her was 100 was totally fine in the car. Yeah, so River was a much more wakeful baby so I co slept with her in the bed and Hunter was caught next to me. And then I didn't move them both out Hunter out because river started waking Hunter and that was a difficult aspect between that still to this day is very, very hard to manage is the waking one another. So I moved through that I'm sorry, I moved Hunter out of our room into her own room and that that was amazing because she was waking up sometimes four times a night not why not herself. It was just the crying and the fussing. So then eventually I moved to river out as well. And yeah, but the same
Fiona Weaver 21:24
room into a different into the same
Melanie Nolan 21:26
room, which I wouldn't if I had my time again, I would never have done that. I just think I had this idea that twins share a room Yeah, and that I just I don't think it was suitable for my twins because they did wake up so often from one another that it meant I was putting two babies to sleep instead of just the one which was a lot you know, on my own so in hindsight, I would have separated them earlier but that you know, but I have I know of women that they're 20 Share and there's absolutely no problems they just don't necessarily wake on Allah but mine maybe like sleep is I'm not sure Yeah, but to this day, their temperaments are very very different and that became apparent once they were just a few months old you know Hunter so River was high needs overnight and Hunter was much more high needs during the day so very very sensitive as a toddler easily dysregulated busy places would really create stress for her like you know, the aquarium the zoo we just couldn't do anything like that with her just huge emotions like noise would upset her and you know all those sorts of things whereas River was just so yeah, just just happy just like a babbling baby Where's Hunter wanted to be carried all day long, needed that constant HOTCH
Fiona Weaver 22:46
River was perhaps more intense in her temperament. But Hunter was more sensitive, like that typical, highly sensitive profile.
Melanie Nolan 22:53
Yeah, and yeah, and what I was saying was that I found it really a big adjustment in just my own parenting style, like how I parented Willow was what I thought I would do for the twins and then just starting to really learn the differences between each of them it's like oh, that doesn't work what I'm doing here for Reba isn't working for Hunter and vice versa. So really learning and becoming more intuitive in my not so maybe strict in my methods of like the but I'm this sort of parent you know, and I'm just learning maybe Yeah, can you
Fiona Weaver 23:23
speak to that a little bit more? Did you feel attached to a certain parenting style when you had Willow?
Melanie Nolan 23:28
I think that I would associate myself Yep, for Willow. I felt I was an attachment parent. And when I found I was having twins I was very stressed about that. I was like okay, well how do I do the baby rearing leads to and how do I coach leads to and how do I you know, respond to both of them so quickly and so I certainly loosened up on that over time. I still would say I'm I am more a gentle parent attached parent but I'm not as strict or hard on myself when I wasn't able to do all the things for all the kids at once you know?
Fiona Weaver 24:04
Yeah. It is a blessing in disguise Isn't it like not to ever dismiss how hard that is to respond to three at once but to be able to liberate yourself a little bit from that rigidity of there's everything for everyone and knowing that secure attachments don't require Attachment Parenting, you know that so different and when we get stuck on a certain parenting style, it can end up feeling restrictive and wait
Melanie Nolan 24:32
did and it was it was hard on my mental health because I was so set in my ways and feeling I was like forced into a corner. I was like, I can't I can't do Attachment Parenting right now because you know, I can't I can't carry them all day long. And I can't. Yeah, it felt easier with one that's for sure. But when I had more than one I was like, Oh my gosh, just there was so much guilt but then slowly pulling away from that and like you said, realizing that they don't need me to be perfect all the time. And as long as I repair, we're good.
Fiona Weaver 25:04
Yeah, absolutely. So you've mentioned that one of those more unique challenges that you have with twins is that they wake each other. What are some other of those unique challenges that you just feel like parents of Singleton's just don't understand? Oh,
Melanie Nolan 25:19
yeah. I mean, like, everything is different everything. Even going out, I could not go out in public on my own for nearly two years, that was so isolating for me. And that's not to say, oh, twin mums have that experience. That was my I just couldn't do it. It was it was really overwhelming. I couldn't manage them all on my own. And especially with Hunter, you know, and her easily dysregulated little self it was, it was really hard. So, you know, but yes, Sleep Sleep was it felt really just easy with Willow. And I just felt like it all lines up with her. And then the twins, just all these different challenges, like breastfeeding was harder. And also, now that they're a bit older, they're the way they affect one another. So I find that quite difficult, like the, Oh, I see you wanting mums. And yeah, I'm gonna want mom and I'm gonna push you away from her, you know that, that sort of competition between them. Whereas I've never, I didn't experience that before. So I found that really hard to try and manage to screaming babies, and then they're getting upset, because you've got both of them in your arms, trying to push the other one out. And the fighting between them is insane. And I know a lot of twin mums experienced that as well. I don't think that's unique to my twins, but just yet constant competition. And then feeling like you're trying to feel that that one's cup, and you're trying to do a little activity with them, and then the other one is coming in, and then they start fighting and you can't do the thing and you know, try to combat one on one time with them is difficult as well, which, you know, I've always wanted to aim for daily, but it's just so difficult. And then routine, like they're sometimes isn't one because, yeah, like they would wake one another, they would wake up at different times, they would nap at different times, they would have different nap lengths. So then, you know, Riverwood sleep 30 minutes and then be ready for her nap earlier than Hunter the next nap. And so you know, like that was a reason why I really found it hard to go out as well, because there was just naps all over the show. And often I had a baby with me awake all day, they would just tag team and so not having the same amount of downtime was was really difficult. And just the fatigue like twin moms, multiple moms even have triplets, you know, they there's there's studies that show you know, twins deplete mothers more. They there's more postpartum depression, there's more exhaustion, they cost more. So that financial stress, you know, yeah, it's it's a lot.
Fiona Weaver 27:58
It's literally everything isn't
Melanie Nolan 28:00
everything. Yeah, literally, when I was pregnant, someone said are twins. The only thing they just say just everything takes all time. It's not just that. Yeah, it feels quite a lot more than just time. But yeah.
Fiona Weaver 28:16
Did you find that this is a lot of people come to me for advice around twins. And I'm very careful not to give advice around twins, because I haven't worked with twins. And I've never had twins. And I just feel as though it must be such a unique experience. But did you find that many of my clients or my followers find that the advice that they search for is not in alignment with their parenting values. And it's about getting them on the same schedule, getting them on the same rhythm sleeping, making them sleep by themselves and self settled and all of that stuff, because it would make life a lot easier. What they were doing and when and they could do that by themselves. But that doesn't feel right for them. So what support or advice is out there for them? Is that what you have found as well?
Melanie Nolan 29:05
Absolutely. And I think because I was Yeah, I absolutely. I didn't want to sleep train. I didn't want to have them in their room initially on their own. I didn't I wanted to breastfeed and like all of that felt like it was going yeah, it was conflicting with like, Yeah, but you need to be doing it this way. I'm like, Yeah, but I can't because that's not the way I you know, I want to parents, so that was really hard. It was like this push pool of feeling like there was a lack of support. Because when I was saying, you know, oh my gosh, the sleeve and it's like, well, just if you they're on formula phase, or if they were sleeping through the night or you know, things like that. And it's like, oh, that's not that's not my situation here. And then, you know, even following pages, and there would be little advice snippets and like, Yeah, but that doesn't, that I can't that correlates to a single turn, you know, and so I found that hard as well. Definitely. I certainly found in the Twin Facebook groups I was in there was a lot of it made me feel better because there was a lot of mothers experiencing the same stresses the same lack of support and just being like, oh my god, okay, it's not just me. That makes you know, that makes sense. But I certainly found that breastfeeding to sleep was not what was recommended for twins and not many twin mums that I was speaking to was doing that absolutely no professionals were explaining like we're telling me I you know, but it was just the way we did it for you know, like, nearly 16 months, so it was really hard really, really get I felt very alone in like, yeah, isolated. Ah, so isolated so hard. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 30:54
If you ever find the right connections, who did make you feel less alone?
Melanie Nolan 31:00
Not not really no, not back then. No, I feel like I, I follow so many more Instagram pages now. And no more now that I feel like, Oh, I could have used all of these years ago, but not so much then. And you know, when the twins were 12 months old, Melbourne went into virtually two years of lockdown. So accessing physical support was even really hard. And so I remember I reached out because I was a single mom as well, you know, and I reached out to a couple of twin, you know, organizations and I said, Do you guys even have in home support and there was barely nothing for twins. Like there wasn't extra Centrelink. I wasn't getting extra Centrelink for having twins. There wasn't you know that in home? Like I needed hands. I think that was the thing. I needed physical hands to help. Because I you know, they were getting rocked to sleep. They were getting patted to sleep or breastfed to sleep. So I needed people to do that with me. But yeah, I just wasn't there.
Fiona Weaver 32:03
So, when? So you mentioned that you're separated around? The twins were about five months old. Yeah. And so was that a huge shell shock in caring for everyone? Or did you find that you were kind of doing it on your own up until then anyway? Yeah, I
Melanie Nolan 32:22
was. I think the the biggest thing that I found that was difficult was no one in the home to share the experience weird. So it was like, there was no one I could tap out to overnight, there was no one I could wake up to. And I mean, my mum, absolutely, when I say that my mom was very, very supportive. But having a mum there isn't quite the same as a full time partner. Because, you know, Mom has her own life, and, you know, and her own concern, so she wasn't a full time partner. So not having anyone if I'd woken up seven times overnight, and then I was awake from 530, you know, I didn't have anyone to tap out to so that was the stuff that I found difficult, not so much the caring of them, because I was caring for them and doing all the physical things, but it was like, financially as well. Like, I'm the only one now in charge of the whole home. Like I had a mortgage and all the bills and you know, I was getting child support, but it was absolutely, you know, like barely anything, you know, minimal minimal, so that was that was that the stresses the like the actual carrying, yeah, it wasn't so much the actual carrying it was all the other stuff. I was like, Okay, now I need to work but I'm also still breastfeeding and I'm, you know, trying to find babysitters for them to care for them while I'm working and you know, all of those sort of things.
Fiona Weaver 33:33
Yeah, yeah, I get it with that must have felt isolating as well in that when you were mentioning to maybe health professionals or friends or someone that you were tired and you're waking frequently. And then they want to slap the behavioral advice on you. Yeah, it can feel just like you're more alone. Yeah, you don't have anyone to say hey, I'm really fucking diet or tell me that I'm doing great.
Melanie Nolan 34:02
Yeah, and I think as well with Hunter being the way she was, I found like I would you know, even maternal child health nurse and things like that. I was trying to explain the way she was. I really hadn't heard of just a highly sensitive child. I was like, they might be that and then there was sort of like, there might be something wrong with her like we need to investigate that and so that was a bit stressful like trying to understand like, because why she's screaming all day long and it was like a stressful trying to just like understand, like, is it a medical issue and all of this stuff and that was stressful. Whereas if someone had just maybe been like that she's just highly sensitive. You know, she's just this is her this is her this is her makeup so that was isolating because I also didn't have any friends that had the same like temperament you know, child as well. So now though, I've connected to so many different you know, in and just on Instagram, there's so many more things I understand about highly sensitive little kid But that was isolating. I had no one. Yeah. Yeah, it was just like, oh my god, I'm experiencing this stress with one of my children. What do I do about it?
Fiona Weaver 35:11
So when when had things kind of shifted for you? When did you feel like you found your feet? Oh,
Melanie Nolan 35:17
it was a long time it was that like, for the first six months, I found the twins easy. I did. Because newborns to me, I really enjoy newborns. The breasts, the sleep breastfeed, you know, that was all that was all absolutely fine. After six months, things started to really shift and become really difficult. And, you know, I don't it's hard to say like, when I found them, more manageable, but the lock downs in Melbourne and then being a single mum, it all combined. So if I had have had a supportive partner who weren't locked down potentially much, much earlier, I would have been finding my feet in being a twin parent, but it probably wasn't until they were nearly three that I was like, I had got this and I'm thriving, not just surviving.
Fiona Weaver 36:03
Yeah, amazing. And you have a new partner now who you have just married. Yeah, so he's not a new partner. Yeah, but like in your heart, but you are newly married.
Melanie Nolan 36:12
And I think when I met him, it was like, Oh, my God, you know, I've got the hands. I've got the emotional support. He's he was fully in and he was getting up overnight. I like We'd only been dating a little while and get to quarantine my house because it looked down and he got exposed to COVID at work. So he was like, would literally died in two weeks. And he was like, I have to isolate at your house two weeks. So they've sent me home from work. And they said, I have to go back to where I was this morning, which was my house and I was like, I was like he's gonna leave like, they're gonna say again, I'll do this two week, period, because he's gonna be so shocked at the twins and the screaming and crying and Willow. But he was just deleting it. Like he's never been not to feed. Yeah, sorry. That was a part of coping was also finding a supportive partner.
Fiona Weaver 36:59
Yeah, that could make an incredible difference content.
Melanie Nolan 37:02
Yes. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 37:06
Just give me a second here. Sorry.
Melanie Nolan 37:08
No, you're fine.
Fiona Weaver 37:15
No, check my questions here.
Fiona Weaver 37:23
Okay. I want to know, what's some of the really unhelpful things that people say to parents of twins? I saw a mom the other day who was pushing her pram with twins. And the t shirt said yes, my hands are full. Yeah. Everybody says to twin mums, oh, your hands are full.
Melanie Nolan 37:41
Yeah, I there's not often you go out where people don't comment on twins. Like they're just a novelty, especially identical twins. Oh, my God. It has to be Yeah, it tends to be all kind of negative in a lot light hearted way. Like, I got a lot of Oh, my God, you're not going to have a life for years. And oh, my god, Bet you're not getting any sleep. And, you know, I wouldn't wish that on anyone else. Thank God, I didn't have 20 You know, like, things like that. And sort of what yeah, not not many like that. There was even older women. We used to be blessed is so lovely. But there was a lot of like, Yeah, I know, I know. I'm exhausted. I know. I'm busy. I'm drowning. You're right. You know. So absolutely. So much, so much of that. But like at the shops, you know, if if I was standing in line to this lady ones in both twins are screaming, I was trying to pay for my groceries. And both in the screaming it's sort of like, and then she's like, Oh, twins, who'd have them? And I'm like, how about you offer to pick up one of them and carry it like, just hold the preset? You know, like, things like that. It was like, Oh, my God. Yeah, I'm so. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 38:54
Yeah. Right. And what about the logistics of like, how did you navigate bedtime with to on your own? That's something that always comes up? And how did that look different over the years?
Melanie Nolan 39:05
You have? Yeah. So initially, it was breastfeeding them to sleep and then popping them down in a court. So one after the other one after the other initially. And then I started to see how I was completely. I think like physically constantly had a baby with me because it was one after the other. So breastfeeding was taking double the amount of time settling was taking a really long time. And so at that point, I did say, look, I really do need to be on the same schedule, and it felt more achievable when there were a few I'm not sure when it was but they were certainly out of the fourth trimester like it was it was later on, they're probably four or five months old. At that point, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna try to sync their naps. And if one wakes early, they need to hold out until it's naptime for the other one and that did absolutely helped me manage life in generals because I didn't then have a baby awake all day because they were alternating, you know, awake time So, I think, you know, if I had some advice, it is that a schedule, both being on the same schedule is really helpful. But it doesn't have to happen immediately. And it can take how long it takes to get to that point. But just the just the retrieval of like, I've got them both down for two hours. So you know that that was really needed, because I needed to be able to tap out or just focus on Willow. But if they weren't on the same schedule, I wouldn't have been able to focus on Willow a great deal because it was just like, Baby, baby, baby. Yeah. The bedtime for ya for the first year was. So once I started to get on the same schedule, Westside is a tandem tandem feed with a breastfeeding pillow. So I would sit on my bed, and I would breastfeed them both to sleep. And then I would move the the deepest sleeper Hunter, off my breast onto the bed. And then I would slowly unclip the breastfeeding pillow, and then carry Hunter still on my breast carry her to her room, because I couldn't feed them in their room like to on a breastfeeding chair was impossible. So I needed my bed. And at this point, they were in their own room, because I've moved them out by about seven months old. So then we carry Hunter, and then slowly unlatch her and put her down the court. And then if she really worried that I would have to re breastfeed her in the chair in the room, but pop Sorry, that was River, pop her down, and then walk back pick up Hunter, sometimes breastfeed her again on the bed to get back to sleep again, and then put it back in our cot. And overnight, if one work, I would just zoom out of my bed to get to that baby before she woke the other one up. And sometimes I would catch it in time, and it was great. Other times, they'd both be awake and I'm trying to breastfeed one, I think the hardest thing would happen was I'm breastfeeding one at three in the morning, and she's asleep. And then the other ones that's crying. And then I'm like, I'm trying to slowly get that one into bed, and then get the other twin, but then that twin would wake and I'm like, I've been here for an hour. And it's like this is the fourth time I've been awake. So that was so taxing. So
Fiona Weaver 42:05
physically hold them at the same time. Like if seven or eight months old, and I was letting anyone back to sleep and the other one starts crying. Do you have to just kind of be there say I will be with you.
Melanie Nolan 42:16
I found that when I had and I Yeah. And then eventually it was sort of like, it's okay, mommy's coming back. The screaming and the crying felt horrible to Yeah. And you've been in like you're rushing that one. I was. Yeah, it was really hard. And I don't think anything would have made that easier. It's very foreign to hear a baby crying and not attend to their needs, like instantly. It just feels wrong. But I had to just readjust my thinking like, you've got twins, you've got twins. This is just what it is. This is just us. So yeah, that was so difficult.
Fiona Weaver 42:48
And there's there's a big difference between that and intentionally ignoring I know, but it felt very different. So then, then you're coming in with the repair each time.
Melanie Nolan 42:59
And I have a lot of compassion for myself looking back, but at the time, I just felt I just don't cheat. I felt guilty. You know, I felt like someone was always missing out. And then you know if I'm trying to because I would also lie down with Willow. So I would put the twins down into their carts, and then I would lay down with Willow and she would fall asleep in her bed with me next to her. And then she'd always come in at around 3am and insulate the rest of the night with me. But sometimes I might overload and she's nearly asleep. I can hear one of the twins screaming and then she wakes the other twin and then we'll go to go and we lose crying and it was just a shift. Yeah, what was
Fiona Weaver 43:33
what was Willa usually doing while you were putting the twins down, so I
Melanie Nolan 43:36
would just pop in front of the telly. Yeah, because I didn't want her to do an activity or anything. I mean, she was a bit over four, you know, and then and then approach five, but yeah, popping her in front of the telly was the best way and so many times she fell asleep on the couch and I was like, oh my god, I hate myself. You know, like, I was not there for her to put her to sleep. But as the twins got older, you know, one challenge we found was that Riva was ready for bed a lot earlier than Hunter. Because Raven was climbing out to climb out every night. She'd fall asleep on the floor of her room. And it was like, yeah, it was like winter and like she can't sleep on the floor. See, would try to come out of her room, a lot of Wake Hunter. And so we made the decision to separate their rooms and that I should just wish I had done it earlier. And it was Scott was deciding it was Scott like an outside person seeing it, you know, as it was, he was like, why are they in the same room? He's like, it doesn't make sense. Hunters were getting woken constantly and she's so tired. And I was like even between and they share a room. It feels foreign to me. Yeah. Anyway, so separating them was humongous because Hunter instantly was sleeping all night rather than getting woken three times a night. And so what I did from two onward when they were in beds was one after the other and I still do that to this day. I do one after the other So I alternate which twin goes first. So lie down with river lay down and she's fully asleep and I switch that. And hunter in Willow, or Willow and river out in the lounge room playing or doing a puzzle or reading or whatever. Then I got the other tween, lay down with them. And then by this time, we're always ready for bed and then I let me be alone. Wow. So how long does bedtime take now? Oh, yeah, it can take over an hour, however insane that just recently I put a boundary in with the twins. And I said, I said, you know, their scope. They call Scott daddy because they we met when they were babies. That's putting one of you to bed and we're switching every night. And I know this is hard. And there was so many tears because they were used to me doing it. And I'm like Scott sitting out there and he's willing and able and they wouldn't let him. Yeah, yeah. So I'd ever not be like this is easy if I just do it. But I was resentful. I was getting anxiety. I was taking so long and I'd get into bed at like 830 and black. Oh, that was the worst. I just feel like sheath right now. I've been hinting to everyone on my own. And you know, to bed grumpy. I was I was feeling I was feeling worn out and resentful. And so this was only like three weeks ago, I finally was like he's doing one of you. The first three nights that tween whoever was with Scott was like mommy Oh, mommy screaming screaming, but they were okay. And I was like, I'm, it's your turn tomorrow. And I'm so excited for you to bed. And I know it's really hard. But daddy's ready tonight. And he said he'd do practicals and all this stuff. And now they find. Now we switch between? Yes. And I just wish that I'd done that earlier. But like it felt easier to just do it all myself. Yeah.
Fiona Weaver 46:35
Yeah, I think it can be really helpful to find those opportunities of like, you know, unfortunately, maybe it did take you getting to a breaking point and resentment of not enjoying the bedtimes before you realize that you needed to change but you find yourself and not the child is something I learned from Philip Perry. But when we are making a change, it's about us. You know, it's not that you're a big girl, and Daddy can do it and blah, blah, blah, it's that I'm I'm struggling because I'm spending over an hour putting everyone to bed. And I love this time with you. And I don't want to lose it. But I can't do all of you every single night. Plan is and I know that you're going to be upset about that, because that's how we've always done it. But I can't wait to put you
Melanie Nolan 47:15
to bed. That's right. And like over my mothering journey, I've learned that I'm an equal part of the family and my needs matter. And that's okay. And that doesn't mean I'm taking from them. Whereas for a really long part of my parenting, I felt like if I'm putting in my needs that I'm taking from them or like supporting my sleep meant ignoring their needs, you know, like, there's certain things like that. So I think that I've found how helpful bedtime is now I'm Oh my God, I wish I had done this earlier. This guy does a tween I do between it's out over and done. We leave in 15 minutes. And then what I can focus on Willow so Yeah,
Fiona Weaver 47:55
amazing. liberating.
Melanie Nolan 48:00
This is great. I my bedtime. My nights back again.
Fiona Weaver 48:03
Yeah, so anybody who is listening, if they are pregnant with twins, or if they have if they are new with twins, what advice would you have for them?
Melanie Nolan 48:13
I think what I would say is that your needs really matter. And some days, you know, you really can't even leave the house. But you need to find the ways where you can support yourself in those in those really hard moments. So, you know, it wasn't like, you know, self care. It wasn't like I couldn't go tap out and have a massage. I couldn't sleep all night. I couldn't get the sleep in those sorts of things. But it was like, right, well, even in this circumstance, how can I prioritize my own self because when my physical health was doing well, I was mentally coping better. And that is true for everyone. If your physical health is poor, and there's deficiencies or you know, you're not eating great, or you know, you're not prioritizing your health, then you just won't cope with with the twins. So that would be my biggest advice is like taking care of your physical health or just finding ways in the day where you can like, when I'd have those horrific nights, I was like, Well, I can control what I eat for breakfast. And that'll at least give me some energy and you know, I can I can make sure I'm taking my supplements and I'm getting blood tests every six months just so that it's like I'm not leaving myself depleted. Because if you you also have depletion, you also have iron deficiency. You also you know, I'm running off carbs and coffee all day. It just is so much harder than then it could be.
Fiona Weaver 49:37
Yeah, yeah, that's really good advice. So where can people find you if they want to reach out to you and connect with you? Yeah, so
Melanie Nolan 49:44
I'm active over on Instagram. So it's at the needle naturopath. And then my website is www dot the natal naturopath.com.au
Fiona Weaver 49:54
amazing and I have been taking your supplements during my pregnancy and I was just sharing with you before We started recording that. I have I ran out of the iron. So I had to take another iron and it has made not very nice difference on my stomach. Oh, well yours is so gentle on the tummy.
Melanie Nolan 50:14
Yeah, because the biggest hurdle for women taking iron is constipation. So it's like the number one reason why someone might stop their iron and, you know, we know if you're deficient, you need it. So it's like, okay, when I developed it, it's like, what can we do? So the the idea was if we add a prebiotic straining, it's going to be helping their digestive systems. So yeah, I could feed
Fiona Weaver 50:33
that the Magic Touch the help on an order some more now. Thank you so much for your time, Mel. It's been so nice to talk to you. And I know that it will be really helpful for so many. I hope so.
Melanie Nolan 50:46
And you know, anytime I was listening, please reach out to me on Instagram like I absolutely will be in solidarity with you. And you know, I hope I haven't scared anyone off twins because it's bloody amazing. Now, you know, and now they're nearly five this year and I'm like, oh my god, I'm breathing again. I'm thriving again. And they are the best and I'm so glad I went through that because it was like a total breakdown of me kind of rebuilding. And so special so special.
Fiona Weaver 51:13
Oh, that's beautiful. And then bloody cute. Thank you so much.
